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Winsford 'Joker' Devine Speaks
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TriniSoca.com Reporters
Recorded: on July 19, 2007
Posted: September 12, 2007
Edited: September 14, 2007
MR. DOUGLAS: Just after the Soca started to get accepted, Ed Watson to me was the man in the forefront of the musical arrangements.
WINSFORD: He did a lot of things for 'Merchant' and them. Hear what happened to that song. Ed Watson and 'Shorty' were in the studio doing the song and their ideas clashed and they quarreled and so on. I went to visit Arthur De Coteau a morning; Arthur used to live upper Bournes Road, St. James, in a little street close to the cemetery. 'Shorty' bust in the door by Arthur and started to talk about how he and Ed Watson fall out last night and is Arthur who finished the song for him and so on. The song was called "Endless Vibrations". The next album 'Shorty' made had a lot of quarrel over it too. He went in the studio with the people and them without music. That was sweet music, "Om Shanti". He had no music written for the song. They sat down there and arrange the song with their mouths for him. When the LP came out there was no mention of them on it. Roy Cape always talks about that. He took all the credit. He put himself as the arranger, but if you don't know music, how could you arrange? Now these things happen.
It was 'Maestro' who wrote "Endless Vibration" for 'Shorty'. He used to write all those songs for 'Shorty' and he also wrote for 'Sparrow'. "Sa Sa Ya" and all those songs were written by 'Maestro'. Plenty people wrote for 'Sparrow'.
MR. DOUGLAS: Yes I know. When I was small I used to hear about a fella called 'Piggy' Joseph.
WINSFORD: He died in New York. He wrote songs like "The Village Ram" and "Congo Man".
MR. DOUGLAS: Who wrote "We Pass That Stage"?
WINSFORD: I wrote that. That was one of the first set of songs I wrote. Ah tell yuh I write for 'Sparrow' for seventeen years. I wrote some of the famous songs like "Memories", "Same Time Same Place", "Rope", "Queen of the Bands", "We Pass That Stage", "I Owe No Apology". There was another one where [Nelson] Mandela said, "I have no apologies for my black skin." The lyrics weren't really written by me.
This is what happened. A day I was in town and I met Guerra. He said, "'Joker', I have some lyrics that I would like you to put in a song." That man carried me in the office and he gave me a plaque with one set of lyrics. He told me it was a poem written by an American fella. He said, "I like this poem. Put it in a Calypso for me nah." I took it home and I just used parts of the poem. I lengthened it and I gave it to 'Sparrow'. It said, "I wouldn't apologize for my black skin under no circumstances." I never took credit for that. I gave the credit to the man who wrote the poem. All I said is that it was adapted by me. That is one of 'Sparrow's' best songs. I remember singing that in Roxy.
MR. DOUGLAS: Did you write "We Like It So"?
WINSFORD: No. "Steelbeam" is the name of that song. I hear Hudson Phillip wrote that. Now that is what I heard.
MR. DOUGLAS: Will ask Karl if he wrote that.
WINSFORD: I know Karl wrote a few Calypsos well.
MR. DOUGLAS: Karl plays music and so on.
WINSFORD: His so-called son, because there is a fella who always says he is his son, is famous for the song "Hurry Hurry, Come For Curry". That little Black boy always used to say Hudson Phillip is his father. In Trinidad small society, don't doubt anything.
MR. DOUGLAS: I know about his daughters but I don't know about any son.
WINSFORD: I don't know any of his daughters. I know only one of Guerra's daughters.
MR. DOUGLAS: How would you like to see the Calypso industry progress in the future? What do you think could be done for improvement?
WINSFORD: It is progressing, but not as Calypso. Those fellas are doing well. It's not like long time when 'Sparrow' used to sing. Machel and those fellas took that to a higher level. My partner called me from New York the other day and told me about the last show that Machel did and how he mash up the place. I hear all kinds of American artistes sang but Machel was so excellent. He said, "Trinidad music reach a different level 'Joker'." That is what they are saying. Those fellas take it to a different level.
The Calypso art, what we know as Calypso, died because the adjudication is poor. I like 'Cro Cro' but you cannot tell me to adjudicate that Calypso as a good Calypso and it ain't good. How you could tell me "Kidnap Dem" is a good Calypso? Doh insult my integrity at all. The adjudication has a problem. We are talking about lyrics and melody. Still, we should be past that. Substance should be criteria because if I am singing "Jack and Jill went up the hill", that is lyrics and melody.
MR. DOUGLAS: It is the same thing with the Pan.
WINSFORD: I had an argument with them Pan fellas. A day I went Panorama and rain started to fall. That year, they put up some tent and so on. I was under a tent with about a hundred people sheltering from the rain. An argument started between two Panmen about the judging of the Pan and only the big bands were coming and so on. I say, "Well in my opinion, I feel Panmen should be judging." I feel 'Boogsie' and them could be judging their own thing now. Ray Holman told me plain that Steelband eh reach no way until Panmen start to adjudicate their own music. That is one of the issues in Calypso and I think in the Mas thing to. The fellas jump up and tell me, "How you could put 'Boogsie' to judge? 'Boogsie' go thief for his band or for any band he arrange for." I say, "Look how sad this is what you are saying here." The man is a national icon. Hear what you are telling me. That is only when he is arranging but other than that he is a thief. That is what you are saying. I put that in a Calypso called "Bacchanal, Dat Is Carnival". How you go tell me the man is a thief? On what basis are you saying that? The adjudication is one of my problems with the whole scenario. I feel that we should be able to judge. There are enough retired Calypsonians from the field who are living.
MR. DOUGLAS: Do you think in that same point that it is possible to really judge culture, especially when it is different topics, different types of Calypsos? Can you really judge that?
WINSFORD: Personally that is one of my things. I do not feel any culture should be judged. I don't know if it is possible and quite a few of us hold that opinion. I heard 'Luta' expressing that. We cannot judge culture at all. Everything what a man feels about that is his feeling. A lot of us hold that idea. Everybody seems to put an edge and keep the standard at a certain level. But I do not feel it should be adjudicated. When you tell everybody that ask, "If we don't, what then? What will we do then?", we lost the edge. There are those who come up with the idea to hold a big show and pay the Calypsonians.
MR. DOUGLAS: I consider that argument very false. If that argument was true, what it would mean is that those who win the competitions, their records would sell the most and they would get the most work. I cannot accept that argument.
WINSFORD: I have seen some of the most popular Calypsonians who didn't win anything because of the adjudication. I see 'Brother Marvin' breaking down the place and placed second. I see Johnny King come second. A year 'Luta' had a song called "The English Language" and something about man. He came here and sing those Calypsos. I say he will win the crown with those two songs and he came second. The song "Progress" came second.
MR. DOUGLAS: This is what I mean and people could still recognize those as top quality tunes even though they didn't win.
WINSFORD: I don't know, but I am one who believe you cannot judge culture too.
MR. DOUGLAS: At least not in that kind of competition. You could reward it. But that is my personal view too.
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