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Winsford 'Joker' Devine Speaks
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TriniSoca.com Reporters
Recorded: on July 19, 2007
Posted: September 12, 2007
WINSFORD: Personally, I feel Steelband men and Calypsonians should have been judging. I heard after they adjudicate, people say this was an old tune and so on. The judges seem not to notice these things or if they notice it, they pass it over. There are ways to separate one song from the other. Another thing is what is truth and what is practicable and all of these things. What I know is that I am not pleased with the adjudication system at all. There are people who don't know music and they are adjudicating. If they know music I don't know about what they know. I know a famous union leader judging Calypso. He was a chief judge on several occasions. On what basis was he judging? You are not even a musician playing music but yuh judging. They have this talk that every Trinidadian knows about Calypso and Steelband. I do not believe in that.
MR. DOUGLAS: That cannot be true. Just by the numbers who appreciate it you know that is far from the truth.
WINSFORD: You bring a good point there... by those who go to the shows.
MR. DOUGLAS: Exactly.
WINSFORD: But Calypso is dying out. Fellas say is 'Cro Cro' and 'Aloes' and them kill it. You know the Indians and them could write and they have a voice. You would hear why they doh go into the tent very regularly. Between me and you they used to go in the tent in flux.
MR. DOUGLAS: That is why the Calypso tents are in jeopardy now. Nobody can convince me otherwise. It's because of 'Cro Cro' and the same 'Sugar Aloes' and them that happened and the war with Panday.
WINSFORD: They sing all kinds of things about them.
MR. DOUGLAS: They used to be the chief supporters in the Calypso tents.
WINSFORD: The Indian man asked me, "Why should I go to the tent and be insulted or my race be insulted?" I told him, "Well you have to do that too. Have your own tent!" That is going to start happening because many of them called me to write Calypsos for them. I say, "Watch meh. I write certain Calypsos. I am not writing any racist Calypsos." If I talk about race I will talk about the imbalance and that kind of thing. I am not going to push. A fella who sang the other day called me a time and I told him no. I am not even thinking about doing that. I could write anything. It is easy to write on the other side.
MR. DOUGLAS: Yes. But they may feel because of the money they are offering you would accept it.
WINSFORD: No I wouldn't do that. I have seen what happened to 'Gypsy'. I am not saying 'Gypsy' is wrong but I have seen the repercussions and it can happen to anybody. I am not taking any chances with that at all. I value my well-being more than that. I made one mistake and write a certain Calypso. On hindsight if I had to write that Calypso I would never do it again. I wrote two Calypsos that I should not have written at all. I wrote one for 'Trini' called "Walkie Talkie Ah Fraid Yuh Mouth Boy 'Chalkie'" because I had gotten a lot of criticisms from 'Chalkie' about me, Leston Paul and 'Merchant'. Them Calypsonians didn't like that Calypso. I wrote it in respect to what he said. I shouldn't have reacted. The same Curtis Pierre and them called me to write for the NAR and I wrote a Calypso called "Vote Them Out". PNM lost thirty-three for three. It was me, Guerra and Hudson at the time. They didn't tell me to write it. The only line they gave me was "People must come first". I regretted I wrote that Calypso.
MR. DOUGLAS: Why would you regret writing those Calypsos?
WINSFORD: Because since that, these people don't like me at all and they are telling me that plain out. It's so funny but the first person who came to me to write a campaign Calypso was a fella whose name I forgot, but he died. He ended up hating the PNM after that. He came by me and he said, "'Joker', ah want you to write a Calypso." He told me the PNM people wanted a Calypso to campaign with. I wrote the song "Sailing". That is how "Sailing" came up. I wrote a follow-up to 'Gypsy's' Calypso called "Captain This Ship Is Sinking". "Sailing" was right before "Vote Them Out".
Hear what happened. 'Gypsy' came under a chain of fortune. He was living in America as an American citizen and he wanted to come back here. He had one set of things in New York like his house, car and household items. He tried to bring it back and Chambers and them blanked him. Manning wasn't the boss at the time; it was Chambers I think. That man got vexed and he never came back. He said, "'Joker', do what yuh want with that Calypso." Nobody came for that Calypso and I never even got paid for it. Then the NAR people, through Guerra and Curtis Pierre and them, came by me and I wrote "Vote Them Out". The people lost. But it was how they lost. They lost thirty-three to three. They never forgave me for that. I am not talking about the hierarchy up there. I doubt Manning and them aware of that. The people who know are the people on the ground. That is why I do not like to write political Calypsos. When that tune came out people were singing "Vote them out". A fella named De Plaitt sang the song. He left Trinidad immediately after that tune. He's not living here anymore. He lives in St. Lucia or one of those countries. He told me, "'Joker', ah cyar live here. People hate me for that song."
MR. DOUGLAS: The fact that it can have an effect on the society at large and how people think, to me that is the true power of Calypso.
WINSFORD: Hear what happened that same year. The only time I saw Kitchener came near to a boo was that year. I went to the tent and he was singing "Choock Yuh Finger For PNM". PNM was grossly unpopular that year. When Kitchener had finished singing is only boo they didn't boo him. That is what made me know they were going to lose.
MR. DOUGLAS: It was the mood in the country because of several different things especially economic. The oil boom had stopped and things were tough, so of course, people would be looking for change.
WINSFORD: I wrote a Calypso this year called "When De Money Done". When you hear it you will laugh.
MR. DOUGLAS: It sounds interesting already.
WINSFORD: (singing) "When de money done, what going to happen". I see we are bringing in all kinds of people because we have money. When the money done what going to happen. When these people gone they eh have any money to pay.
TYEHIMBA: In closing is there something you would like to say to the national community?
WINSFORD: I would like to talk to the Black youths in Trinidad and Tobago. It is time to change the whole status quo on what is going on here. Education is the key. If you knew my background, you would know how far I came from. I came from the last end of Trinidad and Tobago so anything you want to know I could tell you. I always let the youths from around this area know this about me. Nowadays, there are so many opportunities opened to the youths in this country and I am not speaking about the Indians because they are aware. I do not know if they have been taught by their leaders or the community leaders and so on. The Black youths seem not to be aware of what the opportunities are. A few of them are aware but not many. They have to buck up. Forget the slave mentality and try to get up and better yourself because your betterment will make a big betterment for everybody. You will have children and your children are going to have children and that is going to be handed down. Right now they are not doing well.
MR. DOUGLAS: Has anybody from the government ever approached you about contributing or passing on your knowledge to other people?
WINSFORD: The government never came but a few people in the community came to me to give a little motivational speech. Although I never went personally, I wrote things for other people when they asked me to. These are things that are important in the community but not for the purpose of getting awards and so on.
This morning I look at Choc'late Allen for instance and she used a wrong word that made her get a lot of criticisms. I listened to the father and he didn't realize it was just one word that was wrong. You see the word 'award'? She should've never pegged that to the motivation at all. Support for the motivation would have been better to use. The father is a Calypsonian and he should have known that. The word 'award' is what people objected to. You are not to be awarded for something wrong. The moderator this morning kind of put that to them too. She talked over it but that is the whole thing. I am not blaming the little girl because everybody makes mistakes. But people's perception is what counts. People perceived certain things through the media like how Danah Alleyne sit down on a motor bike and so on. What she did was wrong because she was breaking the law and she did it on her own. Forget what Akon did and whatever. People awarding her was wrong. Now I understand what the girl is trying to do.
MR. DOUGLAS: Yes but award is the incorrect terminology.
LESLIE: Do you have any final words?
WINSFORD: No. That's it.
LESLIE: Thank you very for doing this interview with us.
WINSFORD: Thank you.
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