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Winsford 'Joker' Devine Speaks
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TriniSoca.com Reporters
Recorded: on July 19, 2007
Posted: September 12, 2007
TYEHIMBA: Calypso is renowned as an art form of resistance and protest. Do you think what you have outlined here has kind of watered-down the resistance and protest aspect of Calypso?
WINSFORD: This is what I am trying to say although not in so many words.
MR. DOUGLAS: That is fairly evident from the careers of people like 'Cro Cro' and they.
WINSFORD: Personally, I am not giving them wrong. One must look out for one's self. That is how life is.
MR. DOUGLAS: Well up to a certain point because the origin of Calypso really evolved from a cry of protest.
WINSFORD: 'Cro Cro' already sees that as an avenue to make a living but sooner or later people are going to get fed up of it. I am already hearing people on the media talking about it. People are going to get fed up with you singing Panday this and Panday that. Sooner or later it will balance out itself. People wouldn't want to hear that again. That is how life is. Look at how popular 'Gypsy' was. It was surprising and embarrassing to see how they treated 'Gypsy'. That should have never happened. Yes you were popular, and everybody took a touch at you. But it was in poor taste for you to stand up while the man was rendering a song and oppose him in that way. That wasn't nice. And it is Black people who do Black people those things. You do not do those things.
MR. DOUGLAS: It is the politics. It is the same thing you were referring to before.
WINSFORD: Yes. Well that is the whole point. I see the Minister, like she apologized for that.
MR. DOUGLAS: That is only because there were some stinging criticisms in the media from people writing in. I read a letter the following week by the wife of a judge who were both present at the show. She wrote a stinging and well thought out and put together letter in the papers criticizing from captain to cook, including the ministers and them for not coming out and opposing that.
WINSFORD: I thought at first they were applauding for 'Gypsy' but then I realized that wasn't so. That was embarrassing and it should have never happened.
MR. DOUGLAS: To me that is just an extension of what used to happen at Skinner Park. I had stopped going to the semi-final shows in Skinner Park because of that type of behavior. They used to throw the toilet paper before but a year I saw them throwing bottles and so on. I saw that happen to 'Relator' and he stopped competing.
WINSFORD: I saw that happen to Denise Plummer. I talked about it and everybody was against me. I wrote a Calypso about that and nobody sang it. The name of the song was "Calypso Has No Colour". I saw it happen to 'Sonny Mann' too in the Soca Monarch. We must be above these things.
MR. DOUGLAS: Artistes do not choose to select themselves to perform at these competitions. The judges are selecting you so it is not to say that you volunteer.
WINSFORD: These days I have friends who do not like 'Cro Cro' at all but I try to temper them down. 'Cro Cro' is only looking out for himself. Personally, how do you or anyone of us know exactly how he thinks about the politics? None of us knows. You know what he expresses in public but you do not know deep down in his heart who he likes.
MR. DOUGLAS: Well not only that. 'Cro Cro' has a history. When he first came on the scene he was a stinging Calypsonian cutting left, right and center. 'Cro Cro', 'Cardinal' and 'M'ba'; I remember the three of them all were inseparable.
WINSFORD: He and 'M'ba' were partners.
MR. DOUGLAS: Yes, and all of them had a similar style. 'Cardinal' and 'M'ba' still have that style today. But because of 'Cro Cro's' success, as you say, it is where the bread is buttered.
WINSFORD: One has to look out for one's self. That is how it is.
MR. DOUGLAS: 'Cro Cro' was like that. It's not to say he wasn't like that.
WINSFORD: 'Cro Cro' is one of the few educated Calypsonians around. He is educated academically to a certain level. Another one is 'Watchman'. He left here and it was a great loss. He came back the other day but he packed his bag and gone again. He is a very educated person and it is how he thinks too. I always thought he used to think radical but sometimes when I listen to him he makes a certain amount of sense. 'Watchman' and those fellas grew up hating a thing they call 'the system'. I do not know what that is. I have never seen anything tangible working in 'the system' but they have a way they talk about 'the system' this and 'the system' that.
MR. DOUGLAS: They are talking about the status. The way things are set up in the country.
WINSFORD: Yes, but those fellas do not like that at all. I sat down with 'Watchman' and I listened to his point of view but there are certain times he would go clean off. Things do happen that could force a fella to think a certain way.
TYEHIMBA: Who are some of your favorite Calypsonians?
WINSFORD: I always say David Rudder, first of all. I also admire 'Duke' for his Calypso ability. I admire David for many other things and not just for his Calypso ability. I used to like 'Superior' but he has an ideology that I do not like. When he talked about having to make your own Calypso to be a Calypsonian, I could not understand that. I really like David Rudder, even though I do not know him too well.
MR. DOUGLAS: You never worked with him?
WINSFORD: No. I never worked for David Rudder but he is a talented individual. Some people say he hangs out a lot with Peter Minshall, Wayne Berkeley and those fellas who are also talented and intelligent people.
Clive Bradley was also a very intelligent person. When you got him talking it was interesting the way how he looked at things. I remember just the other day I was talking about the issue of Steelbands playing the same type of old compositions and going back to playing any Calypso. 'Boogsie' had his say because he had an agenda. His agenda was if he writes his tune, five or six bands will play it. But if they go back to playing the long time tune, the bands don't have to play his tunes. It was ending up with a lot of tunes being played by the Steelband. They took Clive Bradley on Allyson's morning program on Channel 4 because it was increasing into a big issue that Carnival. They asked him what he thought about Steelband playing old tunes for Panorama. He said, "Well let me ask you this. What is an old tune?" He said, "You tell me what is an old tune," and with that answer he shut up everybody. They expected him to say that Steelband shouldn't go back. I see it stayed because this year they had it again. Apparently, like that [Panorama in] south thing will stay too. Another thing that looks like it is going to stay is the Carnival out of the [Queen's Park] Savannah. There are those who are concerned saying that it is better so. But I don't know. I will not comment on that.
MR. DOUGLAS: Time will tell.
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