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Winsford 'Joker' Devine Speaks
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TriniSoca.com Reporters
Recorded: on July 19, 2007
Posted: September 12, 2007
WINSFORD: I knew Carnival on the street initially. All the Mas I saw was on the streets. I never saw Mas on a stage until I started to come into town. I knew it on the road. I know about old Mas J'Ouvert morning but like they don't have that again.
MR. DOUGLAS: Not much. The mood now is more about party.
WINSFORD: I was never much interested in Mas but I know what is a good Mas. I like Peter Minshall's Mas. Every time he makes a Mas I see something new. One of the problems I have with Mas is that I do not like to see the same thing over and over. Peter Minshall had the capability to come up with something new. I also liked Wayne Berkeley's Mas.
TYEHIMBA: What do you think about the new One Song Rule in the National Calypso finals?
WINSFORD: That is coming back. I understand the problem with the Dimanche Gras show and I sympathize with the people about the length of time and so on. Every action breeds a reaction in life. The Calypsonian is going to take out Calypso. I listen to plenty fellas like 'Superior', and they say Calypso has no right to be with Mas there on a Sunday night. They want a time separate from the Calypso. They tried it but the venue is the problem. Now if I had my way, and my head swell as I start to talk about that, is to take Panorama away from the Carnival too. That is not just we taking Pan out of Carnival. Pan in Carnival must have a different role but the Panorama must be taken out of Carnival. Have Panorama sometime in August or so. Having a whole month of Steelband affairs culminating into the Panorama kills the Steelband. Do you know that many of the smaller Steelbands could only play one tune for Carnival?
MR. DOUGLAS: I have been protesting that for years. It makes no sense.
WINSFORD: I remember the days when we used to learn all kinds of tunes. We are learning but time doesn't allow that to happen for the Carnival season now. The fellas are talking about getting the Pan out of the Carnival now. I know that the businessmen do not want that at all because Pan is the biggest attraction in this country for Carnival. Doh feel is Mas.
MR. DOUGLAS: From since I was small I have always considered that Carnival starts from Panorama preliminaries. That is the real Carnival season.
WINSFORD: That's probably because Pan is outstanding in the Carnival season. Pan has grown. I used to go to New York and Panorama was the only show that I would attend. I went around to all the bands and I found that they were growing. All of the Caribbean second generation are involved. The bands are getting bigger. Some of those bands that come down here do well in the Panorama. They could play Pan. Pan is in nearly everything, not only in New York but in Boston and all those other places.
I was very pleased when I heard the Prime Minister talking about further standardizing the Pan. They found a way to patent the Pan but it was very difficult. The lawyer who is there now told me they had a problem because they stayed too long to patent the Pan. I am pleased to hear this because Pan is all over the place. All kinds of people are playing Pan now.
MR. DOUGLAS: The changes in these new Pans seem interesting because, for example, there are a number of notes on a tenor Pan now.
WINSFORD: I do not know who wrote the statement the Prime Minister made but that was wrong. It will always stay one man to a Pan. Nothing in that seems to suggest that we will have a smaller band.
MR. DOUGLAS: What I understood from what he was saying and from listening to Professor Copeland as well, was that because the Mid-Range Pans have far greater range now, what you used to use the Double Tenor for and the Double Second and the Cello, all those notes are on these new Mid-Range set of Pans. In other words, you do not need to have so many Double Second players, Double Tenor players, Guitar Pan players or Cello players because the Mid-Range Pans they have are capable of doing the work all those Pans used to do.
WINSFORD: I understand what you are saying but it is still one man to a Pan. Let's say, for example, I am putting down music: when I go into my computer to pull up music, is lines. So each Pan player line, that is one man playing that line. What I am saying is, if I am playing a harmony, that is a line playing, so only one man can play that. Let's say I am arranging: when I am finished arranging I arranged nine lines of Pan. I arrange a melody, a counter melody, a bass, a guitar, a guitar backing up with the chords and everything. Those lines will always stay.
MR. DOUGLAS: I follow what you are saying. What you are saying is that for example, there will be a line for like the cello and so on.
WINSFORD: Watch how 'Boogsie' or any one of those fellas arrange. 'Boogsie' will arrange for the tenor Pan that will play a melody. He will arrange for the double tenor which will play a melody. I am telling you how they are doing it now. I don't know if it has changed. He will arrange the melody maybe with a few lower notes to what the tenor Pan plays, with a few pieces of counter melody. Then he goes on the seconds which is a chording Pan and he might put little pieces of the melody. All of these are like three lines.
MR. DOUGLAS: One player cannot play those three lines at the same time. Even though the Pans have the range, the player playing the Pan has to play like the double second line one time. He cannot play that as well as the cello line at the same time on his Pan.
WINSFORD: That is exactly so but with the range of the Pan the notes bring a slight difference. I understand what you are trying to say though. There is only one man who can play that. I know plenty arrangers tried to do that. I used to try to arrange and do that to.
MR. DOUGLAS: I know All Stars used to do that.
WINSFORD: If I had eight second Pans I will give four to play one line. That hardly works because each one has to teach one. The players watch each other when they forget. It's not to say you are reading music and if you forget you could rush your partner on the side to see if you are playing the right thing.
'Boogsie' and Ray Holman split up their harmony and so on the most. Fellas catch their tail to play that because it's hard to play.
MR. DOUGLAS: That is because they are not reading the music.
WINSFORD: Not all Pan players are at a certain level.
MR. DOUGLAS: To me that is the biggest problem with steel orchestras. The ability of the individual players is not normally at a high standard.
WINSFORD: Arrangers like 'Boogsie' and those fellas work hard. You have to work real hard to teach people. I do not have that patience to teach. For instance, if I teach a whole length of things tonight and when I come back tomorrow you forget it, I will have to go over it again. Then there is the creativity aspect. If I teach something last night, only last night I could have taught that. If the next day I forget, I do not want you to lose your respect for my abilities so I pretend I didn't forget it and I give you something new.
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